Orci Reacts To Article And Online Comments
3 min read
Some comments from fans on TrekMovie regarding Star Trek into Darkness got to Roberto Orci, and he lashed out at the article and one commenter in particular.
The comments came after an article written by Joseph Dickerson, in which he claimed that Star Trek was broken. Dickerson offered suggestions on how to fix it.
As might be expected, there were plenty of comments pro and con after the article, and Orci, a regular commenter at the site, chimed in. “I think the article above is akin to a child acting out against his parents,” he said. “Makes it tough for some to listen, but since I am a loving parent, I read these comments without anger or resentment, no matter how misguided.
“Having said that, two biggest Star Treks in a row with best reviews is hardly a description of ‘broken.’ And frankly, your tone and attitude make it hard for me to listen to what might otherwise be decent notions to pursue in the future. Sorry, Joseph. As I love to say, there is a reason why I get to write the movies, and you don’t.”
One poster took exception with Orci’s comments, and said “If you are the real Bob, I say this, you guys didn’t listen to the fans before & will always do what the studio want; which is a movie that has more action & less thinking.”
A moderator at the site confirmed it was indeed Orci, who replied to the poster, saying “… I wish you knew what you were talking about. I listened more than any other person behind the Trek franchise has EVER listened. And guess what? Glad I did because it lead to 2 biggest Treks ever.
“You think action and thinking are mutually exclusive. Ok, then. Pitch me Into Darkness. Pitch me the plot, and let’s compare it to other pitches. Go ahead. Let’s see if you actually understood the movie. Tell me what happened?”
Orci then provided a list of items in the movie that happened as a result of listening to the fans:
- Kirk promoted too fast incorporated as part of the text of Universe.
- Remade Engineering
- Made Scotty more than comic relief
- Got Uhura more into the action
- Touched upon Prime Directive.
- Saw more of the ship
- Brought Pike back
A comment (evidently now deleted) by another poster set the writer off though. “STID has infinitely more social commentary than Raiders (of the Lost Ark) in every Universe, and I say that with Harrison Ford being a friend,” said Orci. “You lose credibility big time when you don’t honestly engage with the FUCKING WRITER OF THE MOVIE ASKING YOU AN HONEST QUESTION. You prove the cliche of shitty fans. And rude in the process. So, as Simon Pegg would say: FUCK OFF!”
Later, calmed down, Orci explained that occasionally he gets angry online and that he values Trek fans. “Don’t take me too seriously,” he said. If you’ve been on this board for the last five years (as I have been) you know that twice a year I explode at the morons. Today there seemed to be a congregation, so it seemed like a good time.
“You are the most listened to fans ever. That doesn’t mean you will get is to do what you want. Just means what I said: I listened. Then we decided, having heard as many opinions as possible. To paraphrase of one of my great and beloved heroes, George W. Bush, ‘We’re the deciders…'”
“You know I love you all,” he reassured another poster. “Every once in a while, even Spock loses his cool ;)”
About The Author
If he can’t handle internet comments like a grown up person then he probably shouldn’t be reading the comments. I will agree that Star Trek isn’t broken as it is evidently still around… but the message it used to illicit is completely gone. Alot of the stuff that happens in the new movies happens out of coincidence and our heroes have to barely think to get the job done. And no, I’m not a hater, I do like the two movies.. but it’s definitely not the same kind of Trek as we used to have. If there was a message in STID I completely missed it… I’m not going to start feeling sorry for terrorists (‘CumberKhan’) when they hurt innocent people.
In the end Orci’s going to end up feeling validated one way or another ONLY because the movie made alot of money. While many people did enjoy this movie, there are many others who didn’t enjoy it… and I am even starting to question how many new fans these new movies are bringing in. I don’t think it’ll be that many.. all it was a summer popcorn flick.. nothing else.
If he can truly convince me that there was a sound, valid, and logical technical reason for the Enterprise to be under-freaking-water then maybe I’ll pay attention to his snippy replies. Then maybe I’ll overlook the magic blood and magic transporters that make starships redundant. Maybe.
I wish Bob Orci would go back to high school English and find out what social commentary is. The really great allegory in Star Trek has never taken the form of literal references to current events. That’s the recipe behind the most forgettable episodes, like “The Omega Glory” and “A Private Little War,” about the Constitution and Vietnam, respectively. The best allegorical stories (“The Doomsday Machine”) were about timeless themes. STID? Yeah, I get it, Bin Laden is like Khan, and we “woke him up” when we funded the 1980s Afghanistan insurgency against the Soviets. It’s true but it’s just not that compelling. The thinking behind STID’s “social commentary” reminded me of the mindset captured in the documentary “Room 237,” in which viewers speculated that Stanley Kubrick used the set design to hide secret messages about the Holocaust, by having Jack Nicholson type on a German typewriter, or that he was trying to tell us about the fake Moon landing.
The 72 photon torpedoes were not what they appear to be? Oh no, better get on r/conspiracy!
Sometimes I wonder why the Abramsverse characters can’t be written to behave like adults, and then I’m reminded about who’s writing them.
Orci, I’ve seen the movie 3 times and I still don’t know why Kahn’s people were in the f#@king torpedos. How was RoboCop gonna have Kirk launch torps at Kahn if the people were replacing the power unit? Nothing in this movie makes sense. We get that shitty little list of things he says fans asked for, but then a series of action connected by the most thin and incoherent plot.
George W. Bush is a hero of Orci’s………. that explains everything !
Is he seriously going to keep claiming the 2009 and 2013 Trek movies were the biggest ever? After their higher budgets and factoring inflation into the box office results, I find it hard to believe either film has made as much as, say, The Voyage Home. I don’t have a personal stake in the answer, so it’d be interesting to learn if I were wrong, but it just seems mathematically unlikely.
And besides…telling a dissatisfied fan he’s wrong not to like the movie because it made lots of money off summer popcorn moviegoers is no kind of an answer at all. Orci has no obligation to answer fan questions, but if he chooses to go on the forum and engage those fans, one would expect something more mature than “…I get to write the movies, and you don’t.”
That, and also, they are like 13 years younger than their Old Abandoned Timeline TOS counterparts for some reason.
Admiral Marcus really didn’t expect Kirk to be able to launch the torpedoes at Khan. He wanted the Enterprise stranded and destroyed on the edge of Klingon space to start a war. The 72 would die when the ship was destroyed. And the Klingons would eventually kill Kahn and be even more pissed that the humans put the genetically enhanced killing machine on their planet. There were all kinds of things I got out of the movie and liked about it. I loved the Kirk – Pike dynamic. I know there is parallelism in life and can appreciate it in the film. I think it’s cool that the closest thing on Earth to a matter-antimatter reactor was used as the engineering set on the Enterprise. I thought Kirk’s death was immensely more appropriate than the one in Generations. I continue to be pleased by the casting. I think the production values were top notch. I like Benedict Cumberbatch as Khan because I wouldn’t want someone that was just an imitation of Ricardo Montalban. I wonder if most of the angry Trek fans really watched the movie, or if they’re just commenting on things they saw in trailers and heard. I see Star Trek as ‘The Legend of Kirk and the Enterprise’. In legends, the retelling is bigger than life. I like movies that are spectacles. I don’t know what kind of movie some of the fans want. I don’t want to see ‘Star Trek: the English Patient’.
Wow. He decided to do something different in a movie. He put the ship under water. That was imaginative. And if the ship can handle the challenges of a gravity well and Voyager can go into a fluid universe, you would think a starship could go under water.
Magic blood? There’s lots of stories (Michael Crichton comes to mind) about nanites that can make something like blood seem magic.
Magic transporters? There have been similar ‘magic transporters’ in Trek and other science fiction shows. Avatar had a lot of things I can nitpick. Why are Star Trek fans so uptight. It’s like there’s a group of fans out there trying to be the Trek Taliban.
According to Box Office Mojo, Star Trek 2009 was the highest grossing domestic Star Trek film ever adjusted for inflation. Overseas box office can almost be disregarded when discussing older movies because they were hardly distributed overseas. Star Trek into Darkness is fourth in domestic box office adjusted for inflation, but becomes first overall when you factor in overseas box office. So he’s correct. In addition, Star Trek 2009 is the ONLY Star Trek movie to win an Oscar for anything. I can see why Bob Orci might point at the scoreboard when he gets frustrated by fans.
I’m not sure what his political affiliation has to do with anything. I guess it’s the world we live in today. Put a label on someone and you can disregard them.
Bob Orci, I’m glad there were changes made, but, too many will p*ss ppl off; Trek is about exploring issues, and not so much about the action…
You’d think fans of sci-fi like Star Trek could handle these things and not resort to calling them “magic”… apparently not lol.
All you posters sound like Star Trek burnouts, you need to move on to another hobby or something, let the next generation have their star trek and you go re-run yours.
I enjoyed that movies without getting too hung up / baggage from the Shatnerverse.
Your such a phoney.
Thank you Dale Northup for point that out to these StarTrek-burnouts. Just because what they saw before does not mean that the children today saw those old Star Trek movies and shows. They should first try watching the new shows as if they had never see a star trek before, then they would see how the next generation is being introduced.
As Dale Northrup mentions, Box Office Mojo does put the domestic gross, adjusted for inflation, of Star Trek 2009 just above the next highest Star Trek movie, which actually is not The Voyage Home but The Motion Picture. See the second chart here: http://www.boxofficemojo.com/franchises/chart/?id=startrek.htm
The Motion Picture’s popularity with audiences at the time may seem surprising at first, but bear in mind what it must have been like to see the TV show revived on the big screen after it had developed such a strong following in the years following the show’s cancellation.
However, this other gentleman’s chart actually puts Star Trek 2009’s adjusted gross still slightly below The Motion Picture: http://www.madmind.de/2009/05/02/all-star-trek-movies-and-episodes-in-two-charts/ I’m not sure if that’s because Star Trek 2009 was still in theaters and the gentleman didn’t update the chart again to reflect Star Trek 2009’s final take, or if it’s because of a different method of adjusting for inflation.
At any rate, the two are within a similar ballpark of “made lots of money.” 🙂 I agree with the rest of your post that Mr. Orci’s appeal to how much money the movie made is neither definitive proof nor disproof of how well it has served the health of the franchise in the long run.
This isn’t Micheal Crichton nor is it other science fiction shows. It’s Star Trek. If some semblance of continuity and canon can’t be maintained then what’s the point of calling it Star Trek? Abrams Nifty Cool Outerspace Adventure Time comes to mind.
Imaginative or not, there was zero reason given for having the ship underwater. Did it look cool coming out? Sure. But give us at least a throw-away line for having it there in the first place.
And don’t assume my ignorance with things other than Trek. Forget Crichton, Greg Bear was more an innovator in Blood Music for things dealing with nanotechnology. My issue with the “magic blood” is that it comes out as a deux et machina for reviving Kirk. And in this case, pretty damn close with the “deux” if you consider Khan as God in relation to the rest of humanity. So now we have a source of immortality? If not, have McCoy throw a line our way saying that this was a one-time thing that wouldn’t work under any other conditions.
The long-distance transporter should have stayed out of this movie. It reinforces a technology that should have been a one-off. Khan could just as easily transported to a stolen high-warp escape craft and gotten away. Any why escape to Q’onoS? Placing yourself on an enemy homeworld with no resources is bizarre.Why not escape to a remote colony planet and blend in with the populace?
What you see as me being nit-picky with Trek details is actually me being nit-picky with plot, pacing, and motivation. This could be any movie and I’d still have the same problems with it, Trek or not. This isn’t about being stuck in past Trek, this is about having a solid script and movie as the core upon which Trek can be placed.
Indeed. This is just a sad state of affairs all around.
Look, I don’t hate the new stuff. I also don’t love it. I see it for what it is: new. It’s not going to be the same. It’s going to be different. But it’s also going to bring in new young blood who then wants to go back into the huge archive of what has come before, and explore. And that, in my opinion, is worth while. Because our fandom isn’t getting any younger without younger people. And it’s not going to do anything but wither and die without them.
Does it mean we might have to endure some of the shallow and short-sighted aspects that are inherent to youth? Absolutely! Especially now. But if it means that in 30 years there are still people who identify as Trekkies outside of retirement homes, and who still watch Bill Shatner, Patrick Stewart, Avery Brooks, Kate Mulgrew, so on and so forth… I can live with that. Because while they might be baited into the franchise by the shiny new young example of things that is what Abrams & Company produce… a lot of them, I hope and have been seeing, will get past that and look at the real substance of things behind it. And in the long run… it’s worth it.
Does Orci realize Gene Roddenberry himself would have HATED both these films and would have been saying things to executives like “You think you have me on my back and now you’re trying to get me to spread my legs. Fuck you.” These movies are exactly the type of Buck Rogers in space foolishness (or to quote Gene – “Animal house in Space.”) that caused Gene to rise up and tell the studio – forget the crap you’re trying to make – I’ll make The Next Generation.
Gene Roddenberry served as a bomber pilot during World War II, then was later a police officer. Gene Coon fought in the war as a Marine. Matt Jefferies had an extensive background in aviation. James Doohan, as is well known, was one of the heroes of D-Day. The experiences of these men and many others informed Star Trek’s futuristic-naval setting and the discipline and professionalism of its characters, and were crucial in making the show the carefully thought-out, believable universe that it was.
Bob Orci, according to all information I have been able to find, has spent his entire adult life writing and producing movies and television. His greatest successes (as he is so quick to brag about) were made on the backs of other people who’d come long before him, people who spent many years building a successful franchise with an enormous fanbase for him to show up one day and play with. Just as we shouldn’t be surprised when Orci retranslates classic characters into entitled punks, perhaps we should not condemn him too harshly when he himself behaves like a tantrum-throwing child; for most children who have success handed to them eventually grow up spoiled.
I could be wrong, but I thought even Trekmovie analyzed 2009/TMP box office and gave TMP the edge — the movies are very close. And TMP opened in 800 theaters versus what, 3000 for the new one. But it doesn’t prove that much. Money isn’t any indicator of quality. And many people who paid to see both NuTrek films, including myself, attended because of Star Trek itself, not because of positive feelings for the reboot, so box office isn’t really an endorsement of this “new” approach. Nobody has to like NuTrek or old Trek, anyway.
I have add, it was the worldwide total with which TMP beat 2009, not domestic.
I well remember when ST:TMP came out. I remember the excitement of finally seeing new trek after spending years watching the same 79 episodes over and over.
Regarding this part of the article: “A comment (evidently now deleted) by another poster”…
The comment that set Mr. Orci off was not actually deleted. It’s #315 by Ahmed. The reason this is confusing is because Mr. Orci cited #312 (his own post) as the post he was responding to, probably because the numbering of the posts shifted during moderation. As Matt Wright explains “[S]ince there were so many comments to this article and many needed approval I’m afraid things have gotten a bit wonky with the comments. I believe Bob was responding to what is now #315.”
Some people also thought perhaps Mr. Orci’s phrase “Shitty Dodge” referred to the username of the poster, but as Hugh Hoyland says, “Not to speak for Bob but I think he meant ‘Shitty Dodge’ as in dodging a question asked in a lousy way.”
I will leave it to others to decide whether they feel Ahmed or Mr. Orci acted well or poorly, but the whole conversation is currently still intact.
STID has earned a lot of money, yes. And? Michael Bay’s Transformers, too. However, Citizen Kane was an unsuccesful movie..
If you want to know why STID is a very bad trek movie, maybe you should read David Mack’s blog (june 2013). Mack is the best trek novelist right now and a best seller author…
In my opinion, the brand mark of this new Star Trek is the arrogance and the intolerance of its staff, the complete lack of originality, the cheap tricks, the cliché action scenes, the silly humour, the hole plots, rivers of blood, the machism…I mean, no star trek, but Gijoe trek…Star Trek is the more important scifi franchise ever, it does not deserve an Orcy.It does not deserve gijoe Type films. Right now Star trek is not the most intelligent scifi franchise, it’s only loud and silly.
Gene Roddenberry hated the Wrath of Khan. He produced Star Trek The Motion Picture so he wasn’t infallible. The first couple of seasons of the Next Generation had some iffy moments. Why the hate for new Trek? I guess Trek fans aren’t adaptable.
Deus ex Machina? Arguably the best Star Trek movie (The Wrath of Khan) had one of the most egregious plot devices in all of Trekdom – the Genesis wave – which was then used in ST-III as the reason Spock was resurrected. Using the blood of someone that – as far as we know – may have crafted cells in their bloodstream to help them repair injury and sickness doesn’t seem all that far fetched to me. Why were there boulders hovering in Avatar – ‘the best movie ever’? Why didn’t the alien ship in Prometheus fracture into a bunch of pieces when it hit the ground? Why didn’t it make a big hole? How does Iron Man’s suit even propel him? Wouldn’t he need big air intakes or are there fuel tanks in the suit? And how did that aircraft carrier in Avengers even fly? Why was STTMP just a movie about reaction shots, and in Generations, why didn’t Kirk just take Soren back into the Nexus? Why didn’t Riker rotate the shield frequencies? I can criticize anything if I just don’t want to like it.
So between him and Simon Pegg, that’s two people who reacted rudely and childishly to legitimate criticisms of the films. They should both grow up. Say what you will about the Star Wars prequels, George Lucas never reacted like this nor did anyone else involved in the films.
My favourite bit is when he says “I read these comments without anger or resentment, no matter how misguided” and then later writes a post full of anger and very resentful of the fans, whom he insults. His arrogance and sense of entitlement is beyond belief. I thought that the last two films were good but I was annoyed by the lazy writing in STID.
Oh, and Orci seems to belief that success is a guarantee of quality, which it certainly isn’t.
TKO!
They’re a lost cause but I agree!
It may comfort you to know that I have as much issue with those examples as you do. Whereas you seem content to shovel popcorn into your mouth and stare at the silver screen, seemingly accepting all the flickering images that pass by, I reserve the right to question, criticize, and expect more. If you’ve decided to become a defender and apologist for those steering the direction of nuTrek, then bully for you. Just don’t expect everybody to roll over and suckle at the teat they are offering as if it is all manna from heaven. If feedback isn’t given, if we just sit here and stare, then we will never get anything better.
The difference is, I notice plot issues but don’t feel victimized because of them. I don’t expect the writer to craft a perfect film that fits every aspect of the franchise’s canon. Movies and other media are an escape from the situations in real life that need to be questioned, criticized, and campaigned against. There are plenty enough of those.
This is where I will completely disagree with you. Once one factors in not only domestic box office gross… but international box office gross… then all media sales (dvd,bluray,download,or whatever method is one day created) toys, books,games,posters,action figures, impact on public consciousness… every revenue stream and cultural significance… Guess what… OldTrek will beat out NuTrek every time. And not by a little… even in NuTrek had 50 years… the numbers appoached will not even be close. Classic Trek will be the one that is remembered. NuTrek will just be a footnote.
Since you seem to have all the answers… then answer this simple one… Why would McCoy bother saying he needed Khan alive to get a blood sample… while he is pulling another genetic augment with the same blood out of a cryo tube? And please don’t give that stupid response that Khan’s blood is somehow more genetically altered and superior than his followers please…
I want to see Star Trek: The English Patient. Real human drama trumps explosions and shiny things every time – the history of drama bears that out regardless of whatever box office popcorn sales figures you want to throw.
We can extrapolate this argument and apply it to western society more broadly…either that or I’ve just grown up and am disappointed by the lack of adults in the world.
The new incarnation of Star Trek offends me – it is a purile enterprise devoid of the intelligent writing and morality of the original. It is an insult to its audience, even if it is larger.
If there is a new television series to enjoy one day let us hope the lowest common denominator whores who write, direct and produce it now are by that time forbidden from being involved with it. If I wanted to watch mindless prattle I’d put on Star Wars…it pains me that I can say that about Star Trek now as well.
Orci, Kurtzman, Abrams, thank you. You repaired a franchise that is already broken…
McCoy didn’t know that the other augments had the same abilities as Khan. To verify that, he’d have to pull an augument out, kill a Tribble, test the blood, wake up Kirk, and administer the cure if it worked. If it didn’t work, and Khan died, there’s nothing that says that whatever blood element that was responsible for the healing property wouldn’t become necrotic and then they wouldn’t be able to save Kirk at all.
If he listened to the fans before making these two movies, he listened to the ones that are politically correct morons. I have been a Trek fan my whole life and have quite a few friends that are fans. None of us have ever wanted any of the items on his list.
*sigh* … his attitude is the problem that Trek has had for a long time. The people that are in charge of making the show/movies think they know more than the fans do and do stuff that craps on lore and “intelligent” story.
Agreed. If anything, the crap he put into the film feels more in line with a liberal ideology than a conservative one. But one way or another, Orci’s political leanings are besides in the point. Crappy story writing knows know political boundaries.
Agreed. I’ve lost a lot of respect for both of them.
Great way to win angry fans over to your side Orci. Sounds to me like someone wants his next “Trek” film to do even worse than his last one did…
The 2009 film did what no other Trek production has done for me: it turned me off to Star Trek. Then, the TNG Blu-rays have been coming out and some of the episodes have been put on theater screens and suddenly, I’m reminded why I was a fan in the first place.
Yeah, Pegg’s another guy I’m done with. His recent comments about the fans were unbelievably disrespectful and condescending, and what’s really amazing about them is that he — like Orci — is saying these things about a built-in fanbase that was cultivated over many years by other people. “He didn’t build that”, to paraphrase a recent famous remark — the Abrams crew can’t even claim to be writing new characters and situations in the Trek universe, the way the DS9/VGR/ENT people could; they are leaning one hundred percent on established creations that they are now trying to claim as their own successes. I CANNOT recall Berman and Braga, for all the shit they got in the ’90s and ’00s, ever talking about their audience like this.
And yes, I have a lot of respect for George Lucas for not going down this path, and I hate the prequels as much as anyone. Lucas did three times the box office and has received a hundred times more crap for those things than Bad Robot has for AbramsTrek, and he doesn’t lash out like this. And at least it was HIS OWN creation that he was screwing up.
uh… do you know the difference between a liberal and a conservative? The movie’s whole premise and problem was based on the conservative idealogical playbook. The whole Khan as terrorist supported by the Federation was a direct lift on conservative leaders propping up dictators like Saddam, Osama, etc. From the beginning – Real trek was not only optimistically liberal – but spoke of a positive future. Not really seeing that in Nutrek…
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=224857
Remember in ;Space Seed’ when Spock mentioned to Kirk and McCoy about the infighting between the supermen during the Eugenics Wars? Or when Spock had mentioned in ‘Let That Be Your Last Battlefield’ of how Vulcan was nearly destroyed by those of wildly opposing points of view?
With all of this infighting going on between Star Trek fans, it’s a small wonder that it has lasted as long as it has. Especially when Star Trek fandom seems to be a militant one these days. Talk about art imitating life!
Khan had a point when he said, “IT’S SO USELESS!!!!”
Let alone the message conveyed by Bill Shatner in the famous SNL skit at a ST Convention.
Look, I enjoy some aspects of Star Trek as the next fan, but this bullshit infighting, letting foolish imbeciles and idiots like Rick Berman, Brannon Braga, Ronald Moore, Dennis Bailey, T’Bonz, John Broughton, Michael Bednar, the entire Farragut Films staff(let alone toxic people like Vic Mignogna and Michelle Specht)adding more fuel to the fire by poisoning and polluting Star Trek fandom with their disgusting idiocy and mishandling, is just utterly and majorly distasteful.
Once again, Star Trek fans don’t practice what in the hell they preach!
First, the BS conflict between Babylon 5 and DS9 fans.
Then the conflict between Star Trek and Star Wars fans.
Followed by this lousy feuding between fans concerning the J.J. Abrams prequels.
The same type of useless bullshit feuding that plagued the Star Wars prequels.
And now this utter BS concerning Robert Orci and what he had to say.
Did it ever occur to you, the fans, that this infighting BS is going to lead to the end of Star Trek?
The fans have kept it alive since the original series was cancelled in 1969.
Now it looks as if the fans are going to kill it with all of this useless infighting, opposing points of view, blatant hypocriscy, mishandling, perversion, petty and vindictive spitefulness, and utter stupidity.
It’s no wonder that the Trek BBS and trekmovie.com are becoming fetid and festering sewers. Both of which that is turning Star Trek fandom, let alone Star Trek into a pigmire being poisoned by pernicious vermin who have no comprehension or respect of Gene Roddenberry’s original vision, whatsoever. Let alone the English language!
What Dr. Zaius said abut man’s mishandling of the Forbidden Zone in the original Planet Of The Apes(FOX, 1968)could very well be applied to the militant mentalities that are foolishly ripping the guts apart out of Star Trek fandom.
They are making an utter desert of it!
Gene Roddenberry is really rolling in his grave at such impetuous and foolish acts.
Most illogical and undignified!!!