Abrams On Star Trek Into Darkness Flaws
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J.J. Abrams took part in a “celebrity nerd-off” with Stephen Colbert last weekend in New Jersey, and naturally the topic of Star Trek came up during the discussion.
There was speculation before the movie was released regarding Khan’s presence in it and yet those involved in creating the movie were adamant that he would not be in it. Other fans wanted fresh, new stories, not a reworking of a story already done in a previous movie.
The former Trek director is aware that some fans were dissatisfied with the story. “We got into trouble on the second Star Trek film with some of the fans,” he said. “There were too many nods to the Wrath of Khan. I’ll cop to that.”
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I loved the first reboot, but only watched Into Darkness Once. Pretty much for what’s stated above.nnnFirstly we were lied to. There’s a difference between evasion/secrecy and outright lying. They said he wouldn’t be in it. He was, so when he was I groaned.nnnAnd of all the things in all the universe and all the worlds they could have visited… they rehashed.
Same here.nnIf they hadn’t had the stupid khan scene, the “super blood”, the spock going psycho, the uhura/spock love tiff (nothing wrong with Uhura/Spock, but they’re both professionals, either that or they should be busted back to the academy), got rid of the gratuitous San Francisco destruction, didn’t have Scotty/Kirk get in a fight, got rid of Boobs (or given her something to do other than model underwear) and had Cumberbatch play a genetically enhanced person who WASNT Khan, it may have been ok. The volcano mission was good, I’m happy to forgive the underwater enterprise as it was lampshaded, but it just got worse and worse.
> There were too many nods to the Wrath of Khan. Iu2019ll cop to thatnnI don’t think he honestly believes this is the only thing wrong with STID. Then again, if he does, then he still doesn’t get it.
The volcano mission was pretty much the only decent part of STID, and even that was flawed. So shuttlecraft can withstand the shearing forces of warp speed and phaser fire, but not a little volcanic tremor and magma? It all went downhill from there, especially the absurd Uhura/Spock love tiff and Spock the emotional basket case.
The picture looks like one man aging (when viewed right to left)
And also the OC-like scenes of everyone crying over everyone.
The spock/uhura argument is the only scene in the movie that has some depth (if only one pays attention to what he says) and respects the integrity of the story and the characters from the first movie because it FINALLY mentions what had happened to vulcan and thus Spock, and how it affects him as a man and officer (and consequently, his relationship with someone he loves). Their scene essentially is the one that is more in topic with THESE characters as both the relationship and the vulcan diaspora are some of the things that are more unique to THIS trek and this story, rather than being a nod to tos. It’s also realistic that in an interspecies relationship like theirs there could be two different povs and cultures clashing sometimes, and the aftermath of the vulcan diaspora was a very credible pretext to show that. It also is an interesting glimpse on the vulcan race. I mean, this is star trek if you don’t explore that stuff here then where? The context of the story is literally decipting a reality where humans and aliens not only know about each other, they live together, become friends, create romantic relationships. nnBesides, in a movie that is pretty much about Kirk it’s nice to have a scene where two other characters express their feelings and get some focus, and I think a lot of people related to them for different reasons, especially anyone who faced ptsd after a dramatic event (uhura was angry because spock seemed to be suicidal), or loves someone who is dealing with that..nAnd even if the scene was about Spock and Uhura, Kirk being there made it so that he got to know a layer about Spock’s character that might help them becoming friends but he wouldn’t otherwise get if Spock wasn’t challenged by the girl he loves and was compelled to explain himself to her. Kirk too needed to understand that just becauae Spock is not just human or like him, it doesn’t mean he has no feelings. n
The only thing wrong with Star Trek into darkness is the loud but whining minority of trek fans who pelted this movie with Donald Trump like invective.nnMy kids thought this was the best trek ever and I loved the film as well, it meant a lot to me. First Contact is still number one but STID is number two in my book.
Exactly….. every point. nnYou have no idea how bad I wished it was one of the other supermen that was let out first, and that his entire mission was to rescue Khan from cryofreeze. A CGI Ricardo Montalban in stasis at the end would have been a great easter egg.
Stid kind of didn’t really deliver what they promised in the first movie and the potential created by the aftermath of the vulcan diaspora, and the fact that this is an alternate reality so they could do new things. They freed themselves from canon’s limits only to essentially make tos a hindrance for this reboot.
I agree about Khan though. He could’ve been just Harrison and somehow related to Khan without being him.
I really like STID but I’m more than willing to recognize that there were significant story flaws, the most prominent being that there were too many nods to ST2:TWOK. There were good ideas in there worth exploring but they were loosely connected that comes down to the work of the writers.nnIt says a lot that only 2 years after ID came out that Abrams is owning up to the weaknesses in the movie. However, I think JJ Abrams gets WAY too much heat for these issues when it’s really his direction and the actors that salvaged a flawed script. I think without this cast and Abrams behind the camera the movie could’ve been awful. A weak script can be salvaged by the cast and director, something I think would’ve been possible with STN had they found someone else to direct it.nI know a lot of people here were glad to hear Abrams directing The Force Awakens over Beyond (to be honest I’m thrilled he’s directing TFA but sad he can’t do STB) but I think they should recognize he wasn’t that involved in the scripting because he was making Super 8. I think Abrams saved STID.
Cool story bro.
The film had more flaws than the Burj Khalifa!
> The only thing wrong with Star Trek into darkness is the loud but whining minority of trek fans who pelted this movie with Donald Trump like invective.nnI agree that “Trek fans” pelted this movie with Trump-like invective. That’s the group that has been with Trek since the beginning.nnThe general movie-going public, on the other hand, loved it.nnI’m leaving it at that.
I was still hoping for that upto the very last scene, perhaps with one of Khan’s idolers pretending to be him. Don’t even need to explain it, just have rows of random faces and then Montalban at the end. Would have been a great “Hah – told you he wasn’t in” flip at the nerds too. Wouldn’t have solved the other problems, but would have gone a long way to forgiving the blatant lie.
I have no problem with the scene, had it been in the mess hall, or in a turbolift, but in a shuttle craft on a dangerous mission in enemy space?! If that’s in character for THESE characters, they seriously need to be busted back down the cadet.nnMaybe have it that Scotty is on holiday on Andor and can’t get back to the Enterprise on time (despite the near-instant warp travel and intersteller beaming), so the ship’s falling apart with Chekov trying to keep it together (although we don’t want a TNG-season1 situation of multiple chief engineers all of whom are outshone by the 17 year old kid), so a turbolift with Spock, Uhura and Kirk breaks down, and then they have the argument there. nnOr you could have Kirk notice that there’s some uncomfortableness between them on the way back from Volcano planet, so gets them both together in his apartment back on earth and then they thrash it out with Kirk unable to leave. When it’s over we could then introduce the obligatory boobs, and Kirk leaves disgusted and goes to a bar with Pike.nnI prefer the first scenario, but either way they don’t enganger the ship or the mission by having an argument there.
Just wait for Kirk’s brother (who was in the first film originally until they renamed him as “Johnny” – that’s how good it almost was) to get in trouble with the Klingons, they end up killing him. There’s a line “You Klingon bastards you killed by brother”. Kirk then blows up the enterprise in some fashion to beat them.
The scene happened where it happened because in a movie with so much action you have to squeeze more quiet moments where you can. JJ explained that the scene as a simple chase scene was fun but flat and boring, it’s only when it became a placeholder for the s/u part that they had a reason to have it in the movie and it became useful. Perhaps not every scene is supposed to be about them being officers and some are simply about people. The context makes sense because it’s a dangerous mission where they could die and this adds to her stress because it was a now or never situation. And if Spock indeed had a death wish, he could get everyone killed there so any officer there would have the right to question his mental state and whatever he was too compromised to be there. I think it works, I mean, couples in real life (or even friends or family) sometimes argue in the worst moments in front of other people.. Anyone who had been in relationships knows that sometimes it just happens. nnHow many times the guys argued in the middle of a mission or the bridge, anyway? Since when Kirk or Mccoy are professional? I find it suspect that the ‘professional’ argument is suddenly used just for Uhura when tos itself had never been a show about characters being an example of professionality. If that was the army, Kirk orobably wouldn’t be allowed to show favoritism for his friends and Bones and Scotty would be required to call him with his rank and never by name, at least not while on duty.n I doubt people would have a problem if Kirk was the one arguing with Spock there, in fact he already argued with him in front of their superior officer and no one seems to care and point up how unprofessional he was.nnYour proposed scenarios are nice but they aren’t the story and honestly, I don’t realistically think the movie could have moments like that.
In my book, STID is number two as well – chock full of it, in fact.
It wasn’t just that STID had a lot of nods to TWOK, it’s that it cheapened what happened in TWOK by co-opting it for the new movie. When Kirk and Spock had that emotional good-bye scene in TWOK, those two guys had EARNED that emotional good-bye, through 79 episodes of TOS and the first two movies. THAT Kirk and Spock had been through everything together, and their friendship was a big part of the show.nnThe reboot Kirk and Spock didn’t even like each other in the first movie and were angry with one another for most of STID. So for them to have that “touching” good-bye scene that echoed the one in TWOK, that felt like the makers of the movie were trying to give their movie an emotional resonance it hadn’t earned, didn’t deserve, and could only manage by stealing from the past.nnAnd now I can’t watch TWOK without remembering the way the touching good-bye scene in it was stolen and misused in STID.nnCheapen TWOK, and hell yeah, Star Trek fans will be mad. And that’s without even getting into what STID did to Spock’s character.
As it is, it felt like we opened at the climax of a fun episode we didn’t get to watch. Then we were forced to watch a bunch of crap that barely made sense, because again, it felt like we were missing most of the episodes. If the plot for that movie was stretched out into a 13 episode arc of a JJ Abrams tv show, all of the conspiracy bits, big reveals, supposed deaths, big twists, demotions, character bickering, etc, would all have a point, and be well drawn out character moments, with depth and shock behind them as the mystery is drawn together and revealed. Its like we got the condensed version; a bunch of action set pieces, and the recaps from “Previously, on Star Trek: Into Darkness” ….
I thought the movie was a good (not great) trek movie.nnI do, however, completely agree with you on the deceit. Lying about Khan’s presence in the movie was a mistake, one likely made quickly in reaction to a leak.
Agreed, it is amazing to me how many people act like STID was the worst trek movie of all time.nnTrek 1(TMP), Search for Spock, Final Frontier, Insurrection are all indisputably worse. An argument could be made that Undiscovered Country, Generations and Nemesis are also worse.nnI’d say STID is, at worst, a middle-of-the-pack trek movie. The hysteria, IMO, is coming from the old guard trek fanbase that grew up on TOS. I often notice that trek fans that grew up on TNG/DS9/VOY are much kinder to the JJ treks.
Good and exciting movie. It didn’t have near the plot holes and flaws of the previous movie. Now,nif only they would give the Doomsday Machine the cinematic treatment.
Bloody hell. How old was Joachim? He was original, not born on Ceti Alpha V, correct? Could have been him. Kang would have applauded.nBut noooo, that would have taken effort.
On a shuttle flight, yes. While the shuttle is being frickin’ fired upon, no. This is not bloody Animal House, no matter what JJ and Damon Lindelof think.n#NotMy1701Crewn#HashtagsAreStupid
You hit it on the nose. They were nowhere near ready for that moment to have the emotional resonance it had with the original series. It also didn’t make a ton of sense that Spock would cry for Kirk after knowing him for how long, when he didn’t cry after feeling his entire planet and everyone on it be killed. I actually do enjoy the newer movies, and I don’t mind the reimaginings of the characters. I happen to love the new cast. The problem I had was that STID leeched off of the genuine emotion of the original series with those echoed moments instead of earning its own emotional gravity. Khan was so unnecessary to STID, and so important to the original series, that it seemed like a dime store knock off of the real thing. In my opinion, it showed that JJ really didn’t understand the spirit behind the original series and the reason why people loved it so much.
actually, the klingons weren’t firing on them. That happened AFTER Spock made his speech, in fact the klingons attacking them kind of ‘interrupted’ their scene. Everything was ‘quiet’ (as quiet it could be in that kind of mission) , they didn’t even know up that point that they were followed. When the Klingons fire on them, they all get back to their job especially Uhura who is the one who understands what they are telling them to do.nnthe only debacle that happened while they were attacked by the klingons was the ‘will fit won’t fit’ one between Kirk and Spock.
Nitpick, nitpick. Whether or not they were actually being fired upon during their tiff doesn’t matter. The point is that they were in the middle of a dangerous mission in which they expected to be “under the gun” at any moment and this is when these two “professionals” decided to have their lover’s quarrel right in front of their commanding officer who incidentally comes off as Commander Fratboy, especially following his “OMG, are you two fighting?” comments in the turbolift in an earlier scene.
Yes! Spock’s crying for KIRK — who he’s barely started to even LIKE — when he didn’t cry for Amanda or for his whole freaking PLANET … that’s just crazy. nnIt’s to Zachary Quinto’s credit as an actor that he was able to play that scene with as much genuineness as he did, given how weirdly out of character it was. I wish he’d done what Mr. Nimoy so often did, though, and objected to a script that has Spock behaving in a way that didn’t make sense and insisted on a rewrite. Mr. Nimoy spent a lot of time and energy protecting Spock from bad writing; I hope now that Mr. Nimoy is gone, and the torch has passed to him, that Mr. Quinto will begin to do the same thing.
Hm. Point taken. Kang freely admits to only seeing the film once.
Exactly! I will absolutely buy that after the events of the first movie they have an uncommonly strong bond, or that they were destined to be BFF soulmates (a concept which is supported by the existence of their mirror verse counterparts amongst a million other OS moments), but the crying and totally losing it in a rage blackout seemed odd to me even when accounting for the fact that maybe these are younger, rougher versions of these characters. The only way I could really justify it was that perhaps Spock wasn’t dealing with his emotions re: losing Amanda and Vulcan and so this was just the final straw and not entirely about Kirk at all. nnnTo some extent, I think the fact that it’s a movie rather than a tv show gives the actors less control over where the characters go. My hope is that with writers who are a little more on point, they’ll do more with the characters in a way that’s truer to their original spirit. Part of the problem was that Orci and Kurtzman, while being entertaining writers, do great with funny banter and more human in-between moments (Hawaii 5-0’s carguments give off a very similar feel to the Kirk-Spock-Uhura shuttle escape conversation), but are pretty weak on interesting plot lines and random, poorly written angst. I’m hoping Simon Pegg’s hand in it will help, and that the executives don’t push too much for more explosions and less interesting plot.
Nitpicking? Lol, you guys keep obsessing over uhura being ‘professional’ in a franchise, old and new (and especially tos!) where the male protagonists had NEVER been an example of professionality, and perhaps Roddenberry himself didn’t give a damn since they are not the army, and imagining what is considered professional in a fictional future setting of a society that doesn’t exist is pretentious by itself btw – yet, I’m the one nitpicking? Lol, oknIn this movie alone there are bigger examples of the characters not being professional that no one mentions e.g., almost every scene with Mccoy and Scotty who never seem to consider Kirk their superior but rather, keep acting as he’s just their buddy or even a little bro? Carol lying to get on the ship and when busted by Spock, she asks him to not tell the captain. The whole point of Kirk’s character? Him lying in the report, him arguing with Spock (actually being xenophobic too) in front of their superior officer WHILE he’s reprimanding them for their behavior.nnAgain, if the spock/uhura’s argument had happened between the dudebros NO ONE of you would complain. But the moment a girl is involved and you have the magic word ‘romance’, suddenly scenes that are fun or needed drama and character development b/w bros, are the opposite for a couple and suddenly we care about professionality and remember that these are ‘officers’. Please.nI’m calling that out. No problem if people want trek to be like the army, but you gotta apply that logic to every scene and character (and then face the fact that if trek was developed like that, we’d lose 90% of the scenes we love) otherwise the double standard is glaring and you are nitpicking.
No, this isn’t the army but I put “professional” in quotes to emphasize that they are from that. What they really come off as here is a whiny (b-word also applies) girlfriend and her henpecked emo-Vulcan boyfriend. Kang hit it on the nose when comparing this type of characterization to Animal House.
A girlfriend being worried and frustated because her partner has ptsd and is possibly suicidal and he refuses to talk about it, is hardly whining. And I guess that every introvert person is ’emo’ now.nnKirk constantly complaining about Spock being…Spock and doing what the first officer is supposed to do*, as well as Spock realistically not getting ‘friendship’ (not b/c he’s alien but because perhaps they don’t know each other yet and they are not friends yet? ) IS whining but it’s fine and allowed for certain fans only because he’s a dude. Just like it’s fine for him to talk with one of his officers the way he did, when he tells Uhura he’s pissed at her boyfriend and wants to rip the bangs off his forehead.nMccoy and Scotty also provide plently of hints about what it means ‘whining’ but…ditto as above. In those cases we firget about “” professional””.nn*second guessing the captain with different opinions is one of his roles because it ensures the captain has an impartial perspective when making decisions that will affect the whole crew. Kirk apparently not only doesn’t get what it means having his role, he doesn’t get Spock’s either.